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I've been using un-slotted bridge pins but have been thinking about switching to slotted pins so I don't have to slot the bridge.
So which do you use and why.
Thanks

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Slotted pins are one of the worst innovations in steel string guitars ever.

If you want the long answer -

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

I am not sure how others do it but I always slot the bridge. It has been my understanding that you want the ball end to be slotted into the bridge plate or you will end up chewing up the hole and causing issues with the contact point where the string interacts with it. The slots also help the ramp angle going over the saddle.

I use un-slotted pins on guitars that are showing signs of the ball ends chewing into the plate. It is usually on guitars that were never slotted that I have seen this, so I will cut slots and switch to un-slotted pins. I have also seen this issue with guitars that have loose pins where the ball end can pull up into the hole, again, I re-slot and ream out the holes for over sized and un-slotted pins.

The object is to have the bridge plate support the ball end and not the pins. A perfect setup would be where you can remove the pins and the strings stay put. You actually should have to push the strings down to unhook them from the plate.

Maybe I am doing it wrong but that is how I have been doing it for years.

Bob

Nice post there David, Great pictures to explain it as well.

You didn't mention anything about slotting the bridge but I am assuming you do since you can't fit a string in with un-slotted pins. And if you do slot the bridge do you also angle the slot for the ramp angle? That is something I have been doing for a long time just because it helps keep the string from getting a kink in it where it comes out of the hole.

Cheers,
Bob

Unslotted pins...............!!! Set them up so that you can take the pins out when the guitar is tuned to pitch. It makes things seem so solid and no pins pushing up and acting nasty. Plus it's the best way to look after the bridge plate. Picked up from Grumpy...!
Tom

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I have a special box where I keep the slotted pins that have been removed from guitars that they have damaged:

I read that in a post by Hesh somewhere David. I'd like to thank you for putting that together. Pretty much made it a no brainer. Unfortunately it seems the most readily available to me are slotted pins so I put a bevel on the tip on the opposite side from the slot and tell the customer, bevel to the ball. The bevel makes it easier for the ball to slip past the tip of the pin. That one was from my buddy Dan Minard.

The key is to get the ball to seat well to the plate. More damage is done to a guitar by poor pins. Slotted pins would be ok if you be sure to toss them as soon as the show wear. Slotting helps the ball end to seat to the plate as it should be.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
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James I like that designation of "Evil" on the box containing the slotted pins!

What was pretty striking to me is the story of why the industry went to cheap, molded plastic pins - to save on labor costs since slotting the bridge, plate, and top was likely a semi-skilled pursuit and also likely took about as much time to do as it takes me to do today every time that I do it.

Bob my friend I'll answer your question - Yes - we slot the bridge, top and plate all in one action for unslotted pins and it sounds like you do too.

Back in the day when this discussion was first held on the OLF and Grumpy was participating we also got into 3 degree vs. 5 degree pins and that discussion remained so influential in my own mind... that I've never used anything but 3 degree unslotted pins.

The single fact that pushed me to switch is the fact that when looking at vintage stuff with unslotted pins very rarely do we see bridge plates damaged by the wear of the string balls on instruments that had the bridge, top, and plate slotted and the pins unslotted. That was and remains pretty compelling to me and also said to me that using slotted pins is not unlike building in a manner with a built-in eventual fail and knowing it in advance.... Not saying that slotted pins will destroy a bridge plate but I am saying that there is a much higher likelihood that plate damage will happen over time on instruments with slotted pins.

If you want to try this and don't have unslotted pins yet you can turn the slotted ones around and the string won't know the difference but I would never hand one to a client this way knowing as I do that if they don't have the concept of unslotted pins firmly engrained in their minds at the first string change the pins are likely to be turned slot side toward string and all bets are off.

OLFer Louis got into making pins to order some years back and made me a stash of very nice 3 degree, BRW, unslotted pins and these are pretty much exclusively what I use on my stinkin guitars.

Hesh, David,
I'm convinced. I'm getting unslotted pins but can you elaborate a little about 3* vs 5 * pins? I'm not sure I understand the advantage of one over the other.



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Rusty buddy I'm not remembering the justification for 3 degree over 5 degree and IIRC it's not nearly as important as simply using unslotted pins to prevent plate damage. Hopefully Mario or David will answer your question.

I'll add one thing - switching to 3 degree pins gives us an opportunity to have to purchase yet another reamer....

Both 5 and 3 degree pins start with a 3/16" hole and either will push the string ball firmly in contact with the plate surface and not the pin hole edge in the plate where it wears from slotted pins. 3 degrees is more traditional although traditionally all manner of tapers including no taper can be found if you look hard enough.

Thanks David for that post. Thanks to Hesh as well, would like some more elaboration on the 3 degrees can you link me the thread on that? This is great stuff.

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I don't recall if if this was Mario's arguments for 3° vs 5°, but there is the issue of maintaining a traditional large diameter and typical head size while keeping full contact all the way down through the bridge plate, which I would agree with as being a better arrangement.

You start with a few constants (at least relatively consistent anyway). First, you need the hole to be around 3/16" (.1875") all the way through if you want ball ends from all the major manufacturers to cleanly fit through. Second, with the traditional head size on pins, the top diameter of the taper typically falls in the .210"-.220" range.

With the typical bridge/soundboard/plate dimensions falling in the 1/2" - 9/16" overall thickness, if you start with a .215" large diameter and taper at 5°, you will taper below 3/16" diameter long before the bottom of the plate. This leaves the pin fit tight only in the bridge and maybe as far as the soundboard, but with a fair amount of slop at the bottom opening. With a 3° taper you can maintain that same head size, yet maintain a more solid fit and contact all the way (or at least nearly) to the inside if the plate.

This isn't so critical a flaw for me to consider a deal breaker with 5° pins. I've seen plenty of old guitars with setups like this, and although the pins can distort at the bottom where the ball end pushes them toward the back end of the slop, it stops short of allowing the ball end to bear in to the hole or it's corner, and the plates are still always fine (assuming they kept the original solid pins). Still, given the choice I would agree that 3° is better, as it allows for fu contact along a greater length of the pin/hole fit with less slop and room for pin distortion at the bottom with the same upper diameter.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

." Unfortunately it seems the most readily available to me are slotted pins"

Hi Danny,
I buy the readily available, inexpensive plastic pins and superglue corian strips into the slots. Plastic binding material might work just as well. It only takes a couple of minutes to turn them into unslotted pins. You can also use this method to make a pin fit a little tighter in the hole (although using an oversized pin might be a better solution). Being kind of a cheapskate, buying a set of plastic bridge pins for a buck and a half, rather than $6 appeals to me. I still want them to work properly and don't mind the time it takes to make them unslotted. For a pro it might not be cost effective.

Danny Stew-Mac has em unslotted in ebony, bone, and genuine, imitation plastic. They are 5 degree though but again the unslotted pin even in 5 degree is IMHO an improvement on a slotted pin for proper bridge plate hygiene...

When I get a guitar with plastic pins I always recommend they be replaced with bone or ebony. I have seen so many chewed up and bent plastic pins that I just won't use them. I just installed a set of Ivroid pins in my latest build and in one of my Martins to see how they work. They seem harder than plastic but I am not sure what the material is.

I have replaced slotted pins with the same even after cutting clean slots in the bridge and plate. I then always show my clients how to properly seat the strings so they understand the pin shouldn't hold the ball end. When I show them, I point out how I aways put a slight bend in the string so it goes into the slot. Then have them pull on the string with the pin out to show them how to properly seat the ball end. Maybe I will switch and just stop using slotted pins altogether. Then I won't have to caution them about the slots in the pins anymore...

One thing I also do and I am not sure if anyone else does this but I seat all the strings in the bridge first and feel inside the guitar to be sure I have all the ball ends in the correct position before I wind them around the tuners. I started doing that a quite a few years ago and I have eliminated the problem of the strings not being tight against the bridge plate and sawing its way up as you tune the guitar. Someone showed that to me a long time ago and I thought it was good advice so I have done it ever since.

Bob

" rather than $6 appeals to me"

Make that $9....

Some sets of pins made from exotic materials cost about as much as an inexpensive guitar and work almost as well as plastic.

Gurian sells plain, unslotted ebony, boxwood, and rosewood bridge pins for about $2 per instrument (though there's a 72 pin minimum and a $50 min order).

Some people think the 5degree pin releases easier for string changes. IMHO it is also easier to fit in the beginning because of the increased taper. FWIW 3 degree pins have more mass. Either one I like them on the upper side of the tolerance which would be closer to .225 for 5 degree and .210 minimum for 3 degree.
Since I make my own I actually use both sizes depending on what I have sitting around and looks good on the guitar. With either one the the size of the hole, and clearance for the ball end, will apparently increase when you slot the top and bridge plate. Don't think I have ever gone as large as .187 for a through hole. Generally drill undersize and let the reamer open the hole so there is full contact all the way through.

Thanks to all for the feed back especially Hesh and David. I’m sticking with un-slotted pins. Looked around and see that LMI has 3 degree pins and I have a 3 degree reamer so I may change to 3 degree pins and
The only reason I thought about changing is because I spend so much time slotting the bridge. I do it with small files and try to match the slot to the string diameter.
There’s got to be a better way.
How do you slot the bridge?

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Say what you do, Do what you say.

Hi Dave!

For us it starts with the little saw from Stew-Mac or a shop-made variant of same and then we refine and clean things up with these gauged files. For string ramps we use a Fordam tool with a cutting bit.



When you say there's got to be a better way this is likely the reason for the introduction of cheap, genuine imitation plastic slotted pins. It is a bit labor intensive is it not.... I try to keep cut-offs from common string gauges available, 6" lengths with the ball end just for this process so that I can trial fit the intended strings into the holes with the pins. Once the intended pins fit great and the intended strings fit great with the bridge, top, and plate slotted as need be I'm done and the instrument will take a new set of string during set-up without any issues related to using unslotted pins or the slots that I made in the bridge, top, and plate.

We often work on some pretty old stuff including a very nearly pre-civil-war Martin. What's glaring for us after a while is that instruments that had solid pins and the bridge, top, and plate were slotted nearly never show any bridge plate wear. And that to me is a very worthy goal!

The pic that I borrowed from Stew-Mac showing an action shot.... I would also caution folks that this is not how I would do it in so much as there is risk of slipping off the bridge and gouging the guitar top. I work these tools vertically only never letting the tips come above the holes to minimize any risk of ruining my day.

I use a jigsaw with the smallest blade I could find. It was a bit nerve wracking at first but once you do it a couple of times you'll realize it's not dangerous at all and the whole operation takes just a couple of minutes.

The hardest part is getting the saw to line up perfectly with the exact center of the hole for proper string spacing. With a thin blade you'll make a few passes on the thicker strings so start on the bass side... if you're off by a little you can easily compensate on subsequent cuts and get the hang of things before you get to the trebles where you'll need to make one perfect straight cut.

Was it Mario who has used a jigsaw for slotting?

Where's a Ditch Witch when you need one....

Yep, it was Mario.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I use the little stew Mac saw blade with the handle and make the slot bigger with a small drill bit ( run it up and down using the side of the bit) on the wound string slots.
When you have a 3/8 in bridge + top thickness + plate thickness hole to ream, a 3 deg pin will leave a larger dia hole at the bottom. It will allow more easy fit for the ball at the end of the string.


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